Quote:3. Do members of one Great House have a legal right to arrest and judge members of the other? I.e. was Catelyn’s abduction of Tyrion, given all the incriminating evidence, legal?

It was a bit dicey. A lord administers justice in his own lands. Catelyn would have had a much stronger claim if she had taken Tyrion in the north. Even in our own world, there are always dangers in taking on the rich and powerful, regardless of the legality of your auction or how much evidence you have… and the high lords of Westeros are a deal more prickly about their honor.

Quote:“Your proof is in the dagger,” Ser Rodrik said. “A fine blade like that will not have gone unnoticed.”

There was only one place to find the truth of it, Catelyn realized. “Someone must go to King’s Landing.”
____________________

“No,” she told him. “Your place is here. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell.” She looked at Ser Rodrik with his great white whiskers, at Maester Luwin in his grey robes, at young Greyjoy, lean and dark and impetuous. Who to send? Who would be believed? Then she knew. Catelyn struggled to push back the blankets, her bandaged fingers as stiff and unyielding as stone. She climbed out of bed. “I must go myself.”

Quote:...and yet this seven-times-damned she-wolf Catelyn Stark had outwitted him at every turn.

Quote:The crossroads gave her pause. If they turned west from here, it was an easy ride down to Riverrun. Her father had always given her wise counsel when she needed it most, and
she yearned to talk to him, to warn him of the gathering storm. If Winterfell needed to brace for war, how much more so Riverrun, so much closer to King’s Landing, with the power of Casterly Rock looming to the west like a shadow. If only her father had been stronger, she might have chanced it, but Hoster Tully had been bedridden these past two years, and Catelyn was loath to tax him now.

Quote:After the council Roose decides to hunt a pack of wolves near Harrenhal. Arya also learns from the Freys that they have been dishonored, but does not know why.

Quote:If you had to fall into a woman's arms, my son, why couldn't they have been Margaery Tyrell's?

Quote:“I did,” Catelyn said firmly. “I understood what I was doing and knew it was treasonous. If you fail to punish me, men will believe that we connived together to free Jaime Lannister. It was mine own act and mine alone, and I alone must answer for it. Put me in the Kingslayer’s empty irons, and I will wear them proudly, if that is how it must be.”

Quote:"Robb, if that sword could bring him back, I should never let you sheathe it until Ned stood at my side once more...but he is gone, and a hundred Whispering Woods will not change that. Ned is gone [...] and many other good men besides, and none of them will return to us. Must we have more deaths still?"

Quote:“No, but you have courage. Not battle courage perhaps but . . . I don't know . . . a kind of woman's courage.”

Quote:Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers….It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady.”

Whoever Jon’s mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away.

Quote:It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon. She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned’s sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse.

Quote:In medieval Wales, a "bastard" was defined simply as a child not acknowledged by its father. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, that were acknowledged by the father enjoyed the same legal rights, including the right to share in the father's estate.

England's Statute of Merton (1235) stated, regarding illegitimacy: "He is a bastard that is born before the marriage of his parents." This definition also applied to situations when a child's parents could not marry, as when one or both were already married or when the relationship was incestuous.

The Poor Law of 1576 formed the basis of English bastardy law. Its purpose was to punish a bastard child's mother and putative father, and to relieve the parish from the cost of supporting mother and child. "By an act of 1576 (18 Elizabeth C. 3), it was ordered that bastards should be supported by their putative fathers, though bastardy orders in the quarter sessions date from before this date. If the genitor could be found, then he was put under very great pressure to accept responsibility and to maintain the child."

Under English law, a bastard was unable to be an heir to real property, in contrast to the situation under civil law, and could not be legitimized by the subsequent marriage of father to his mother. There was one exception: when his father subsequently married his mother, and an older illegitimate son (a "bastard eignè") took possession of his father's lands after his death, he would pass the land on to his own heirs on his death, as if his possession of the land had been retroactively converted into true ownership. A younger non-bastard brother (a "mulier puisnè") would have no claim to the land.

Quote:“I’m Lord of Winterfell!” he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, “You can’t be Lord of Winterfell, you’re bastard-born. My lady mother says you can’t ever be the Lord of Winterfell.”

Quote:"She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?"

Quote:Thus, the question I have is if Catelyn went out of her way to mistreat Jon in the past -- and which form this might have taken -- or if she rather tried to avoid and ignore him?

"Mistreatment" is a loaded word. Did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No. Did she distance herself from him? Yes. Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No. (The instance in Bran's bedroom was obviously a very special case). But I am sure she was very protective of the rights of her own children, and in that sense always drew the line sharply between bastard and trueborn where issues like seating on the high table for the king's visit were at issue.

And Jon surely knew that she would have preferred to have him elsewhere.

(31-05-2015, 09:12 PM)karmarmi link Wrote:Κατ' αρχάς συνάγω από την απάντησή σου, κι ελπίζω ειλικρινά να έχω δίκιο, ότι συμφωνείς τουλάχιστον με την άρνηση επίρριψης της όποιας ευθύνης στην Catelyn για το ξέσπασμα του πολέμου και τα γεγονότα που οδήγησαν στο Red Wedding.

(01-06-2015, 02:24 PM)Godric link Wrote:απλά θέλω να πω πως μ αρέσει ο τρόπος που αναπτύσσει τις σκέψεις τις η karmarmi 

επί του θέματος δεν μπορώ να πω ότι συμφωνώ ή διαφωνώ γιατί δεν έχω τελειώσει την ανάγνωση των βιβλίων

πάντως πολύ ωραία ανάλυση

(02-06-2015, 09:34 AM)atropos link Wrote:+1 Karma στην Karmarmi για 2 λόγους.

1) Επειδή the North remembers
2) Επειδή συμφωνώ 100% και δεν είχα ούτε τις γνώσεις ούτε την υπομονή να κάνω τόσο λεπτομερή ανάλυση τόσο καιρό

Quote:1. Many feel that Tywin wouldn't have supported Lord Frey in his plans for the "Red Wedding" if Jaime was still captive in Riverrun. Is that an accurate assessment?

"What if" is always a hard question to answer. Jaime's imprisonment might have made Lord Tywin more cautious, but there are no certainties.

-------

I mainly asked because many feel that it was Cat freeing Jaime which caused Robb's death. What's your opinion about it? For that matter, do you think that Cat's actions were foolish and entirely motivated by emotion?

Well, I showed you her actions and let you see the thoughts processes that led up to them. Beyond that, I will leave the interpertations to my readers.

Quote:Lord Rickard lashes out at her angrily because he has been denied vengeance for his sons. The Greatjon tells him to go easy as it was only a mother's folly. Robb stops the bickering and gives Catelyn his forgiveness by saying he knows what it means to commit a folly for love, causing Rickard to storm out angrily.

(01-06-2015, 11:53 AM)Jons Spearwife link Wrote:Λάθος. Η Cat μπορεί να χωρίσει τον Ned άμα θέλει. Αλλά αυτό δεν έχει να κάνει με το εάν είναι μητριά του ή όχι.
Εδώ κάνεις κατ’εμε ένα τεράστιο λάθος. Το WF ήταν πάντα περισσότερο σπίτι του Jon παρά της Cat. Η Cat δεν είχε δικαίωμα πάνω σε αυτό. Τι εννοώ, ας πάρουμε το υποθετικό σενάριο ότι είτε η Cat και ο Ned δεν είχαν παιδιά ή είτε τα παιδιά πέθαναν μικρά. Ποιος θα γίνονταν ο επόμενος άρχοντας του WF? Η Cat ή ο Jon? Η σωστή απάντηση είναι ο Jon. Στοιχηματίζω ότι ο Ned θα ζητούσε από τον Robert να ονομάσει τον Jon ως Stark και να γίνει ο διάδοχος του παρά να δώσει το WF σε μακρινά ξαδέλφια. Όποτε ποιος έχει πιο πολύ  «δύναμη» και δικαίωμα πάνω στο WF?

Quote:Πότε το Westeros έγινε Μεσαιωνική Ευρώπη?

Quote:Αυτό δεν ισχύει. Δεν λέει πουθενά στα βιβλία κάτι τέτοιο. Αντίθετα έχουμε δει μπάσταρδα να είναι στην αυλή και να έχουν υψηλές θέσεις. Ο Ned δεν θέλει να τον πάρει μαζί του γιατί κάποιος μπορεί να έκανε την λογική επεξεργασία και να καταλάβει την αλήθεια

Quote:The look Ned gave her was anguished. "You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard's name...you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned."

Quote:A bastard is a person whose parents, at the time of their birth, were not married to each other. There is a certain stigma that comes from being born as a bastard, as their nature is often seen as lustful and deceitful. As a polite way of referring to someone who is bastard-born, someone may be referred to as a "natural son" or "natural daughter". A less polite term, indicative of the social stigma against bastards, is "baseborn", although this term does not apply if both parents are noble. A euphemism for being bastard-born is "being born on the wrong side of the sheets".

Quote:“Gilly, he called me. For the gillyflower.” “That's pretty.” He remembered Sansa telling him once that he should say that whenever a lady told him her name.

Quote:Alayne was an older woman, and bastard brave.

Quote:She would pray, but she does not know who to pray to. The Mother to protect him? [...] oh, it would be so sweet to see him once again.

Quote:Sansa sighed as she stitched. "Poor Jon," she said. "He gets jealous because he's a bastard."

Quote:Thus, the question I have is if Catelyn went out of her way to mistreat Jon in the past -- and which form this might have taken -- or if she rather tried to avoid and ignore him?

"Mistreatment" is a loaded word. Did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No. Did she distance herself from him? Yes. Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No. (The instance in Bran's bedroom was obviously a very special case). But I am sure she was very protective of the rights of her own children, and in that sense always drew the line sharply between bastard and trueborn where issues like seating on the high table for the king's visit were at issue.

And Jon surely knew that she would have preferred to have him elsewhere.

Quote:Η ύβρις ήταν βασική αντίληψη της κοσμοθεωρίας των αρχαίων Ελλήνων. Όταν κάποιος, υπερεκτιμώντας τις ικανότητες και τη δύναμή του (σωματική[1], αλλά κυρίως πολιτική[2], στρατιωτική[3] και οικονομική[4]), συμπεριφερόταν με βίαιο, αλαζονικό και προσβλητικό τρόπο απέναντι στους άλλους, στους νόμους της πολιτείας και κυρίως απέναντι στον άγραφο θεϊκό νόμο -που επέβαλλαν όρια στην ανθρώπινη δράση-, θεωρούνταν ότι διέπραττε «ὕβριν», δηλ. παρουσίαζε συμπεριφορά με την οποία επιχειρούσε να υπερβεί τη θνητή φύση του και να εξομοιωθεί με τους θεούς[5], με συνέπεια την προσβολή και τον εξοργισμό τους.